Chat transcript of the meeting discussing and reviewing proposals.
This transcript is cut and pasted from the chat log
<agentrickard> The monthly Knight Drupal Initiative review meeting will start shortly. Raise your hand if you're here for that.
<pinglaura> hand
<agentrickard> hey
<Druplicon> hola
<j_matthew_s_> hand
<dlobo> hand
<add1sun> hand
<cairnsim> +1
<miccolis> hand
<reinier> hey
<agentrickard> if you submitted an application, go ahead and post the link
* nickvidal has joined #drupal-dojo
<agentrickard> hey nickvidal
<nickvidal> hi ken! ;)
<agentrickard> how's the process going?
* agentrickard reminds the new folks that nickvidal already has an app in the hands of Knight Foundation
* katin raises hand
<nickvidal> Jose is reviewing it at the moment
<agentrickard> so you finished your paperwork?
<nickvidal> Yes, but perhaps Jose will ask for more
<agentrickard> if so , you might update your tracking issue
<cairnsim> Here's ours: http://groups.drupal.org/node/14388
<Druplicon> http://groups.drupal.org/node/14388 => Expanding Context_UI, Spaces, Messaging and Notifications, FeedAPI and Maps and Open Sourcing 8trees and Managing News => 1 IRC mention
<nickvidal> ok, i'll do that :)
<agentrickard> cairnsim: now I make the connection to your nick
<cairnsim> Hey Ken
<cairnsim> how's it going?
<agentrickard> busy busy
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<agentrickard> we have 3 main agenda items today, I thinl
<agentrickard> and remember, I'm just here to move things along
<agentrickard> we do have a whole bunch of new proposals -- at least 3 came in the last 3 days -- and we might not talk about all of them
<agentrickard> but those folks should get time to introduce the ideas later
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<agentrickard> generally, we give each proposal two full reviews. If it doesn't pass, we consider it dead.
<nickvidal> it's good to see that many proposal have been sent! very different scenario from the last! :)
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<agentrickard> SO the first item on the list is http://groups.drupal.org/node/12721
<Druplicon> http://groups.drupal.org/node/12721 => NewsCloud Newsroom Module => 1 IRC mention
<agentrickard> this was discussed heavily last month, and I don't see Jeff here
<agentrickard> it is currently below the approval threshold
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<litwol> hello
<sdboyer-laptop> err...belated hand
<litwol> i hope i didnt miss DKI ?
<litwol> KDI*
<agentrickard> nope
<add1sun> litwol, just started
<litwol> whew
<litwol> i just got off a call
<sdboyer-laptop> and just popped the Decisionmaking & Consensus proposal up this morning: http://groups.drupal.org/node/14775
<Druplicon> http://groups.drupal.org/node/14775 => Decisionmaking API & Consensus Module => 1 IRC mention
<agentrickard> so, on NewsCloud, I move that we table that proposal and ask Jeff to resubmit a new version if he wants to be considered again
<agentrickard> again, that's http://groups.drupal.org/node/12721
<Druplicon> http://groups.drupal.org/node/12721 => NewsCloud Newsroom Module => 2 IRC mentions
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<RobLoach> Greetings.
<TKS> I would second that motion
<agentrickard> any thoughts?
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<agentrickard> does anyone have an issue with the two review "policy"?
<add1sun> sounds sane to me
<gusaus> cool - some newcomers :D
<agentrickard> again, for you new suybmitters, it means you get two months (in effect) to rally support for your app
<nickvidal> i think it's fair
<agentrickard> so add1sun and sdboyer-laptop this month doesn't count for you
* j_matthew_s has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
<pinglaura> so this would not be our first review for http://groups.drupal.org/node/14722
<Druplicon> http://groups.drupal.org/node/14722 => Grant-Making System => 2 IRC mentions
<agentrickard> you too litwol
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<add1sun> agentrickard, i figured
<sdboyer-laptop> agentrickard: cool cool
<webchick> Weird. That took forever.
<Druplicon> webchick: 4 hours 5 min ago <yoroy> druplicon: tell webchick about http://groups.drupal.org/node/14755#comment-49341 and ask her if she'd like to share some advice on how to provide constructive ux feedback in the issue queue
<webchick> What's up?
<Druplicon> I wanted to talk to you about last night, in that closet.
<Senpai> Please don't tell me I missed a meeting?
<add1sun> agentrickard, just to clarify that also means the timeline for funding is definitely into next year then?
<agentrickard> yes
<agentrickard> the timline is open
<sdboyer-laptop> ahh, good
<webchick> Ahem. Context? :)
<webchick> What did I just get pulled nto?
<agentrickard> KDI meeting
<webchick> Ah.
<sdboyer-laptop> webchick: sounds like a closet, if you listen to Druplicon
<webchick> lol
<Senpai> ahhh, got it.
<add1sun> agentrickard, i mean that if it takes 2 months for community decision, then 1-2 months for KF
<agentrickard> right
<agentrickard> but commuity can go faster
<sdboyer-laptop> agentrickard: yeah, actually, one point of clarification...
<sdboyer-laptop> ahh wait
gt; does anyone have an issue with the two review "policy"?
<add1sun> sounds sane to me
<gusaus> cool - some newcomers :D
<agentrickard> again, for you new suybmitters, it means you get two months (in effect) to rally support for your app
<nickvidal> i think it's fair
<agentrickard> so add1sun and sdboyer-laptop this month doesn't count for you
* j_matthew_s has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
<pinglaura> so this would not be our first review for http://groups.drupal.org/node/14722
<Druplicon> http://groups.drupal.org/node/14722 => Grant-Making System => 2 IRC mentions
<agentrickard> you too litwol
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<add1sun> agentrickard, i figured
<sdboyer-laptop> agentrickard: cool cool
<webchick> Weird. That took forever.
<Druplicon> webchick: 4 hours 5 min ago <yoroy> druplicon: tell webchick about http://groups.drupal.org/node/14755#comment-49341 and ask her if she'd like to share some advice on how to provide constructive ux feedback in the issue queue
<webchick> What's up?
<Druplicon> I wanted to talk to you about last night, in that closet.
<Senpai> Please don't tell me I missed a meeting?
<add1sun> agentrickard, just to clarify that also means the timeline for funding is definitely into next year then?
<agentrickard> yes
<agentrickard> the timline is open
<sdboyer-laptop> ahh, good
<webchick> Ahem. Context? :)
<webchick> What did I just get pulled nto?
<agentrickard> KDI meeting
<agentrickard&
<webchick> Ah.
<sdboyer-laptop> webchick: sounds like a closet, if you listen to Druplicon
<webchick> lol
<Senpai> ahhh, got it.
<add1sun> agentrickard, i mean that if it takes 2 months for community decision, then 1-2 months for KF
<agentrickard> right
<agentrickard> but commuity can go faster
<sdboyer-laptop> agentrickard: yeah, actually, one point of clarification...
<sdboyer-laptop> ahh wait
<add1sun> the money won't happen til next year at the earliest
<sdboyer-laptop> nm, that clarifies :)
<Senpai> and it does, too.
<agentrickard> add1sun: probably. after you get through us, there is still Knight paperwork to do
<add1sun> right, ok, just wanted to clarify - thanks :)
<agentrickard> nickvidal can address some of that later
* gusaus thinks a few of these projects will be complete and funded thru other means before that :)
<agentrickard> so to my knowledge there is only one other project that hit the review threshold this month, even though its new
<nickvidal> ok
<agentrickard> and that's the big proposal from cairnsim
<agentrickard> http://groups.drupal.org/node/14388
<Druplicon> http://groups.drupal.org/node/14388 => Expanding Context_UI, Spaces, Messaging and Notifications, FeedAPI and Maps and Open Sourcing 8trees and Managing News => 2 IRC mentions
<agentrickard> about which there is some procedural debate
<miccolis> I'm also here from Devseed
<agentrickard> welcome
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<miccolis> Me being Jeff...
<agentrickard> I'm of the opinion that this should be split into separate proposals, but I am not a dictator
<TKS> agentrickard - have the DevSeed folks broken this up in to multiple proposals?
<cairnsim> Here's where that stands:
<cairnsim> we knew that a second stage of work on any project like this would mean more detailed proposals
<cairnsim> what we submitted, as one proposal because of a request from Jose at Knight, was complete in the scope
<cairnsim> right now we're working on the details
<cairnsim> and are going to a much more detailed level than might be common on GDO
<cairnsim> we had a great call with Jose on Tuesday this week again
<cairnsim> and he's asked us to submit the paperwork through their channels
<cairnsim> so we're drafting it for Knight and should be done that next week
<cairnsim> at which point we'll post more details, e.g. budget, more itemized deliverables
<cairnsim> and communications plans
<agentrickard> so do we simply remove this from KDI consideration, since you are going striahgt through Knight?
<agentrickard> It sounds like you don't need our help.
<cairnsim> we really didn't think so
<cairnsim> i mean, removing it from KDI
<cairnsim> we don't think that's a good idea
<cairnsim> and neither did Jose
<agentrickard> shame he isn't here
<litwol> sry to be lagging. doing alot of stuff. so does this mean that to get http://groups.drupal.org/node/14760 accepted for review i need to get community support for it? what does 'support' mean in this context? people giving their thumbs up or something else ?
<Druplicon> http://groups.drupal.org/node/14760 => Drupal Learning Resource Center => 5 IRC mentions
<cairnsim> We
<cairnsim> We're really interested in having this out for the community's engagement and to get feedback
<agentrickard> litwol: we can get to that after we clear up the DevSeed app
<litwol> ok thx
<cairnsim> at this point, we've gotten great votes and very positive comments about all the projects
* litwol phades into background on hold
<cairnsim> we certainly want to keep talking with everyone about the process here
<cairnsim> and about the details for the projects
<cairnsim> which is why we'll be sharing a second round of updates and looking for more comments
<cairnsim> that said, we know this is playing out a bit different than how things have gone with others
<agentrickard> so does that mean we table a formal decision until the next meeting?
<TKS> cairnsim: But does this still need to be considered for "nomination" by the community? Or are you just looking for constructive feedback as you work directly with Knight?
* agentrickard would agree with that
<cairnsim> I think at this point constructive feedback -- that's a good distinction TKS
<cairnsim> Knight has already asked us to move forward with it
<agentrickard> I think that is the disconnect
<cairnsim> but we certainly believe success here means involving everyone
<agentrickard> since KDI is a filter for projects that Knight otherwise is not aware of
<cairnsim> Maybe we're not entirely clear then on what the purpose of KDI is
<cairnsim> we were thinking this was about getting the community's input, etc. on projects for Knight
<agentrickard> it is
<agentrickard> but it normally assumes that you have no introduction to Knight
<cairnsim> gotcha
<agentrickard> the fact that you have a direct link to Jose (Zamora, our contact at Knight) makes it odd
<cairnsim> sure
<cairnsim> so how would you want to see this play out?
* agentrickard is open to suggestions
<agentrickard> anyone?
<cairnsim> as are we :)
<reinier> i think discussing the project is worthwhile
<nickvidal> i think the proposal's detail should be open
* j_matthew_s_ feels that feedback should always be available
<cairnsim> I think we've just had some confusion about how to interact with the KDI protocol while at the same time 1. really wanting to engage with everyone, and 2. already having talked to Jose
* nikkiana has quit ("This computer has gone to sleep")
<agentrickard> from a pure KDI process standpoint, I would submit the three apps separately and let them stand on their own merits
<reinier> it allows the community to 'spend knights money'
<agentrickard> and then let Jose group them for his convenience
<cairnsim> nickvidal: totally with you, like I said that was kind of a "phase 1" version of the proposal
<nickvidal> and the best way to achieve this openness is through the KDI process that has been set in place
<agentrickard> part of the issue is transparency and part is fairness to other applcants
<cairnsim> Great - so the transparency part isn't a problem thing like I've said
* agentrickard notes to people that you can, in fact, submit apps directly to Knight, but they carry more weight if they coime through the Drupal community
<TKS> The other alternative is to sit tight on the KDI funding front with this, and just make clear on the proposal that you've got a different funding path and would like feedback on fine-tuning the project.
<cairnsim> We wanted to get feedback on the merits of the ideas, which we've gotten -- everything is really positive
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<TKS> Though, like agentrickard just said, we're trying to put the community seal of approval on these...
<j_matthew_s_> @TKS I would concur. That this group doesn't have to OK the proposal.
<agentrickard> I would agree in this case
<agentrickard> but it is a special case
<TKS> And just to be clear -- I love the DevSeed proposal. Just trying to clarify how best to engage...
<agentrickard> the only issue -- potentially, and i have no details -- is if there is a limted pool of money to draw from. But Knight has not made that clear yet.
<shady|> i think it's great that, even though you've already talked to Knight about it and it may not go through KDI, that you're putting it out there for community discussion and improvement
<cairnsim> TKS: totally. We too have felt a little unsure about this process. ;)
<agentrickard> I think eric (gundersen) was trying to be a good community member
<cairnsim> Certainly
<cairnsim> Here's what I'm hearing and an idea for moving forward:
<agentrickard> shoot
<cairnsim> We plan to post the more detailed proposals when they're written, and continue to get community feedback (which we really want!)
<cairnsim> But since we're already talking directly to Knight and they've asked us to move forward, perhaps this is handled differently
<agentrickard> You could just make the page a "discussion" on the KDI group instead of a formal proposal
<TKS> +1 to agentrickard's idea. You can always re-propose later if need be...
<agentrickard> true
<gusaus> agentrickard: that's a very interesting idea - something i was wondering about...are you saying it's ok to post something that really not fully ready for kdi review?
<agentrickard> sure
<gusaus> i.e. the proposal needs work?
<agentrickard> I don't see why not
<cairnsim> Ok then. So for now, we'll move it to a discussion and continue to update it with details.
<add1sun> sounds good to me
<agentrickard> only nodes of type 'proposal' show up in the View and get voting widgets, though
<litwol> could create project space on d.o for proposal. then use issue tracking for proposal updates. then when ready post it on KDI g.d.o
<agentrickard> alreayd have one
<agentrickard> http://drupal.org/project/issues/234658
<add1sun> litwol, the process goes the other way :0
<add1sun> ;)
* agentrickard phone
<josh_k> agentrickard: can you give me the url for the node we need to remove?
<agentrickard> http://groups.drupal.org/node/12721
<Druplicon> http://groups.drupal.org/node/12721 => NewsCloud Newsroom Module => 3 IRC mentions
<cairnsim> Just to clarify as far as Dev Seed and http://groups.drupal.org/node/14388 goes for this chat --
<Druplicon> http://groups.drupal.org/node/14388 => Expanding Context_UI, Spaces, Messaging and Notifications, FeedAPI and Maps and Open Sourcing 8trees and Managing News => 3 IRC mentions
<RobLoach> Is there a guideline available for writing proposals other then following other proposals? What should be included, what's required, etc?
<agentrickard> http://groups.drupal.org/node/10462
<Druplicon> http://groups.drupal.org/node/10462 => KDI Application Tips => 3 IRC mentions
<cairnsim> We're going to pursue this directly with Knight, we'll use the feedback we've already gotten, and we'll continue to solicit more. We're going to keep making everything very clear.
<cairnsim> I think that's it?
<RobLoach> agentrickard: Thanks.
<josh_k> agentrickard: is this a 1-off thing or a more general need for the group?
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<agentrickard> general
<josh_k> ok
<josh_k> I think the best thing here is to add another taxonomy term, and then filter the "recent proposals" view to only show proposal nodes that are tagged w/the "proposal" term (vs. this other term... e.g. "proposal accepted" or "proposal declined")
<gusaus> what about, 'proposal needs help from a mentor'?
<agentrickard> sorry all
<agentrickard> josh_k: I was trying to kjeep that conversation off this channel ;-p
<josh_k> oh
<agentrickard> back on topic
<agentrickard> DevSeed -- youi folks are ok with the go forward?
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<cairnsim> I think so. Did my recap make sense?
<agentrickard> yes
<cairnsim> great
<cairnsim> we're set then
<agentrickard> let's take a little bit of time for general Q&A, and then give everyone a chance to introduce the new proposals
<cairnsim> great
<reinier> the knight objectives are linked to the US only
<reinier> how does that influence this process?
<agentrickard> reinier: not for KDI
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<agentrickard> nickvidal's proposal is for Brazil
<agentrickard> reinier: see http://groups.drupal.org/node/10464
<Druplicon> http://groups.drupal.org/node/10464 => KDI Frequently Asked Questions => 3 IRC mentions
<nickvidal> the Knight is ok with non-US proposals
<agentrickard> There is no requirement for citizenship or residence in a particular country. However, there may be cases where funding may not be available in specific countries, due to U.S. law. If this issue comes up during your application process, we will address it as best we can.
<j_matthew_s_> There may some other "hoops" to jump through, specific to other countries.
<agentrickard> yes
<agentrickard> Jose can help with that, and, if necessary, we can get answers up front so you don't waste time
<j_matthew_s_> Basically if your country is not on the denied parties list in the US you're ok.
<agentrickard> gusaus: did you have questions?
<reinier> am in uganda :-)
<agentrickard> well Knight News Challenge did some African projects last year
<gusaus> agentrickard: i just dug up an old post that might have some discussion points - http://groups.drupal.org/node/13882
<Druplicon> http://groups.drupal.org/node/13882 => Mentors/coaches for proposals => 1 IRC mention
* agentrickard contractors
<gusaus> i think it would be a good idea to have a mentoring group for proposal writing
<gusaus> also more of a concerted effort to get the word out about KDI
<gusaus> one effective way to do that would be on a local level
<nickvidal> My advice is just to post your proposal and received feedback from the community.
<agentrickard> you can always revise a proposal based on feedback
<agentrickard> reinier: you should probably just post a question, either on the FAQ, or as a new post
<nickvidal> Mentors/coaches would be the community itself
<gusaus> agreed - i still think it would have to have some people/mentors you could goto for proposal writing
<gusaus> nickvidal: the community is huge
<agentrickard> those are hard to find
<nickvidal> but only a few are at KDI group
<gusaus> agreed, so might it be a good thing to find those people?
<nickvidal> and fewer will review your proposal
<nickvidal> people will find you once you post a proposal
<agentrickard> part of the idea behind the two reviews is that people who submit proposals should be reeaching out to folks to give reviews
<josh_k> right
<j_matthew_s_> There are professional grant writing consultants out there...
<agentrickard> for instance, add1sun might asks sepeck (the documentation lead) to comment on the Documentation Sprint idea.
<josh_k> if review 1 is not a pass, you can work w/the people who gave feedback to better prepare for review 2
<litwol> very nice
<agentrickard> any other process-related questions, or should we let people do some introductions?
<gusaus> it seems to me that was some of the reasoning behind the knight news challenge garage - http://drupal.org/node/292468
<Druplicon> http://drupal.org/node/292468 => Knight News Challenge Garage, powered by Drupal, designed and developed by pingVision => 2 IRC mentions
<agentrickard> gusaus: it is, but that isn't our project.
<j_matthew_s_> What is the ettiquette for voting? Seems like we ought not vote on our own project...?
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<litwol> i highly doubt a single vote would make a diference
<agentrickard> voting ettiquette is -- if you vote, leave a comment explaining your vote
<litwol> oh i c
<agentrickard> http://groups.drupal.org/node/11798
<Druplicon> http://groups.drupal.org/node/11798 => Proposal review guide => 6 IRC mentions
<litwol> only votes with comments count ?
<gusaus> litwol: i hope my vote will ;)
<agentrickard> that page could use some love from a volunteer
<agentrickard> litwol: no, all votes count. But its preferred if you also comment.
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<agentrickard> "I give it a 4 because ..."
<litwol> sure
<litwol> well i gave myself a 5 :)
<litwol> :-p
<agentrickard> hardly a crime, but I would be suspicious of a proposal with 20 5* votes and no comments
<add1sun> heh
* litwol nods
<gusaus> i think more people (like gusaus) would be less afraid to post proposals
<agentrickard> does anyone want to talk about a specific proposal?
<sdboyer-laptop> agentrickard: so sorry to be pushy, but i've got this meeting starting in ten minutes, so my clock is running if we're to do introductions of the other new proposals
<sdboyer-laptop> ahh
<agentrickard> go for it
<agentrickard> sdboyer-laptop submitted http://groups.drupal.org/node/14775 today
<Druplicon> http://groups.drupal.org/node/14775 => Decisionmaking API & Consensus Module => 2 IRC mentions
<litwol> i am willing to give way to some one with tighter schedule to talk
<sdboyer-laptop> litwol: i appreciate it
<agentrickard> talking is optional
<litwol> sdboyer-laptop: good luck :)
<sdboyer-laptop> so the basic principle behind the proposal...as the title suggests...is to write an API that can support group decisionmaking processes of all shapes and sizes
<sdboyer-laptop> then implement that API to create a module that models the Formal Consensus decisionmaking process
<sdboyer-laptop> there's also a third phase to the proposal which is about testing, but i think that the basic concept itself is more than enough to talk about to start :)
<sdboyer-laptop> the notion is that the Decisionmaking API should be able to support anything/everything from large-scale traditional voting, even simulating things akin to Robert's Rules of Order (they don't transfer so well to web-based media, but...)
<sdboyer-laptop> or can be pared all the way down to tailor to something like...
<sdboyer-laptop> oh, what's a good example
<sdboyer-laptop> i dunno, picture a drupal shop where the developers choose which clients to take by collective decisions
<agentrickard> lol
<sdboyer-laptop> =P
* agentrickard and sdboyer-laptop work together part-time
<reinier> would it support this process we are working on?
<reinier> how?
<sdboyer-laptop> as in, the KDI process?
<reinier> yes
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<sdboyer-laptop> yes, i actually give quite a detailed example of the ways the KDI process could benefit from it in the proposal :)
<litwol> very nice
<agentrickard> I'm just reading this for the first time -- I refused to review it privately before publication -- and it's interesting because in the initial KDI launch we deliberately did not want to spend developer time creating a process engine
<agentrickard> but now, in a sense, we are asking to fund the process engine
<sdboyer-laptop> but the bottom line when it comes to the decisionmaking API is that it can support pretty much decisionmaking flow/rules/tools/etc, incorporating groups of people based on arbitrarily defined criteria, or a criteria like members of an organic group
<TKS> I think a couple hypothetical "case studies" would be helpful. I haven't fully digested the proposal, but I really like the concept. Using KDI as one might be a problem, for the reason agentrickard mentions.
<sdboyer-laptop> and encapsulate all of that within other systems for handling workflows, so that the resolution of a decision (regardless of how one GETS to that resolution) can trigger other sorts of events using existing drupal workflow tools
<sdboyer-laptop> yeah, i mostly chose KDI because it was the one that the people reading the proposal would be most likely to have personal experience with :)
<sdboyer-laptop> so, the background to all this
<litwol> sdboyer-laptop: may i just say, i highly aprove :-D
<litwol> hehe
<sdboyer-laptop> as i mention at least briefly in the proposal
<agentrickard> I am a little confused about the 'organizers' role in the project
* litwol likes the proposal
<sdboyer-laptop> litwol: thanks :)
<agentrickard> but can comment on that on the app page
<sdboyer-laptop> agentrickard: hopefully what i'm about to explain will clarify that a bit, but yeah, please do
<litwol> coming from group organizer background. decision making in group context is, err, headache.
<sdboyer-laptop> and i can clarify further if not
<litwol> i will leave a detailed comment
<sdboyer-laptop> litwol: yeeeeeeup.
<sdboyer-laptop> awesome. thanks.
<TKS> My question/concern would be that an engine that can accommodate TOO many processes will be horribly complicated. After all, group-decision-making is a heck of a lot more complex than, say, querying and displaying a list of nodes! But I'll withhold judgement until I really read the proposal :)
<agentrickard> so, that's bascially the idea behind "introduce your proposal" -- give some key points to get folks excited, so they'll read and review
<litwol> i'm the NYC drupal user group organizer if that adds any weight to my vote :-D
* agentrickard also uses it as time to actually read the proposals
<agentrickard> TKS: I think that's where pluggable subsystems comes in
<sdboyer-laptop> agentrickard: ahh, ok, so i'll save the responses for the thread :)
<agentrickard> since a site will probably only use one
<sdboyer-laptop> TKS / agentrickard : and yes - that's the idea behind pluggable subsystems :)
<agentrickard> sdboyer-laptop: yes, think of this as publicity, not debate
<sdboyer-laptop> kk
<agentrickard> anyone else care to talk about their app? litwol?
<TKS> Cool. Given that my organization is up to its ears in group decision making, I'll read with interest!...
<sdboyer-laptop> a thin core that is capable of mixing and matching numerous different pluggable subsystems, giving you just what you need and loading nothing that you don't
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* j_matthew_s_ raises a hand
<sdboyer-laptop> TKS: fantastic, glad to hear it :)
<sdboyer-laptop> thanks folks!
* sdboyer-laptop runs to his meeting
<agentrickard> the chair recognizes j_matthew_s_ ;-p
<j_matthew_s_> Thanks!
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* MediaDoneRight recalls a similar module aimed at group decision making for avail for Drupal 4.6 or 47. sdboyer-laptop was this yours? are you aware? (am I stirring a pot - not my intention - could just be bad memory)
<j_matthew_s_> pingVision is excited to propose creation of a Drupal based Grant system. http://groups.drupal.org/node/14722
<Druplicon> http://groups.drupal.org/node/14722 => Grant-Making System => 3 IRC mentions
<litwol> agentrickard: i could say a few words
<agentrickard> litwol: you;re after j_matthew_s_
* litwol waits his next turn
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<j_matthew_s_> Our contention is that there are many options for use of proprietary systems, but few opensource options.
<j_matthew_s_> While some tools exist, few have a feature set allowing for grantmakers to manage the process from application to acceptance of a proposal.
<sdboyer-laptop> MediaDoneRight: nope, i've not heard of that, but i'll investigate. (it wasn't mine, i only hit the drupal scene abt nine months ago)
* MediaDoneRight JUSt found the module: http://drupal.org/project/decisions
<MediaDoneRight> looks pretty dusty
<agentrickard> MediaDoneRight: can you poist that link on sdboyer-laptop's application page?
<MediaDoneRight> not sure how relevant etiher... just recalled checking it out a couple years ago for a neighborhood website
<MediaDoneRight> agentrickard: ok
<agentrickard> j_matthew_s_: I was just reading the comment thread
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<j_matthew_s_> Yes, there seems to be some debate
<agentrickard> this one could take a while
<agentrickard> to get resolved
<j_matthew_s_> We feel strongly that a solution should be separate but compliment other tools like CiviCRM for example.
<agentrickard> I think you'll need to actively recruit some reviewers on this one. I'm not even up-to-speed on the issues involved.
<j_matthew_s_> @agentrickard We are in the process of doing just that.
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<j_matthew_s_> It will likely include some that are not directly involved in the Drupal community. Will that pose any problems?
<agentrickard> this is a huge project
<shady|> j_matthew_s_: are you going to break the costs down a bit more or is it just "52 person weeks = $300K"?
<agentrickard> I should also note that our initial discuissions with Knight suggested thatprojects this large may be over-reaching
<j_matthew_s_> What kind of detail is required?
<agentrickard> enough detail to satisfy the curious, I think
<j_matthew_s_> LOL
<agentrickard> exactly
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<agentrickard> I've got 17 minutes left, so we should keep moving
<agentrickard> litwol?
<Druplicon> Litwol is singlehandedly responsible for the salvation of the Bohemial rainforesty treefrog species, and once hiked 700km just to buy a Diet Coke. Oh, he does the occasional Drupal patch too.
<agentrickard> wow
<gusaus> hahah
<litwol> be careful with that factoid :-D
* agentrickard didn';t see that coming
<litwol> lovely intro huh
<litwol> i wont take long
<agentrickard> you're doing http://groups.drupal.org/node/14760
<Druplicon> http://groups.drupal.org/node/14760 => Drupal Learning Resource Center => 7 IRC mentions
<litwol> yes
<agentrickard> right?
<agentrickard> k
<agentrickard> note
<agentrickard> this one brings up another interesting pojnt
<litwol> unfortunately dmitrig01 couldnt make here today. i will briefly speak how i'm involved with this and will note on what i know about dmitrig. and then will move forward
<agentrickard> dmitrig wrote this, but the funding would not go to him for legal reasons.
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<josh_k> :)
<josh_k> no minors!
<agentrickard> minors are ok on teams, but they need a sponsor
<litwol> my personal involvement in this project comes from being new york drupal user group organizer. i strive to spread drupal awareness and educate people to use it effectively. through natural selection i ended up working with dmitrig since our views colide
<agentrickard> so I wouldn;t say "no minors"
<litwol> dmitrig01 was previously involved with the original drupal-dojo
<litwol> so, now the project
<gusaus> litwol: so you're basically wanting to take the failing dojo2.0 project, call it something else, put a relatively new team on it (at least to the dojo), ask for money - and the things going to be a success?
<shady|> Step 3: Profit
<gusaus> i'm curious to know more about the plan
<litwol> based on my experiences with local groups, i've identified that groups are ideal source of content (of various formats). i would like to incorporate that fact into the new drlc
<dmitrig01|afk> i'm here
<litwol> hey!
<Druplicon> hola
<dmitrig01|afk> for 3 mins
<litwol> dmitrig01|afk: give a few words since you are on time constraint ? i'll continue after you
<dmitrig01|afk> so what am I supposed to talk about?
<litwol> add1sun: i would like to answer your questions here if you have time
<litwol> dmitrig01|afk: never mind :-p. i'll go on
<add1sun> litwol, i need to leave in a few minutes
<add1sun> but feel free to answer the questions here
<add1sun> though they really need to be on the g.d.o site
<litwol> DRLC strives to lover the bar on learning curve for drupal. it accomplishes this task by allowing everyone to easily upload their content. tips & tricks, articles, walkthroughs videos, audio, etc
<litwol> add1sun: i will first answer them here and then post on g.d.o
<add1sun> cool
<dmitrig01|afk> add1sun: I don't think it will be hosted under drupal.org. We haven't determined the exact domain name, but that will be one of the first steps. I am planning to ask for sponsorship from a drupal hosting company for hosting, so that's the main hope.
<dmitrig01|afk> ok gotta go bye all
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<gusaus> litwol: how again does that differ from the dojo2.0 project?
<litwol> bye
<add1sun> well there is money involved
<litwol> one moment
<add1sun> but my question is around how does having uit off d.o
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<add1sun> avoid the very issues we had with dojo?
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<gusaus> add1sun: and that solves everything yeah :)
<add1sun> and i hoonestly feel that it should be under d.o
<add1sun> especially if we are asking KDI for funding on it
<litwol> unfortunately i do not have a solid answer or any guarantee at this time. however i may only give a glimpce of hope based on people involved. dmitrig01 is a very dependable figure in drupal community, and iam personaly involved very consistently with new york drupal user group
<litwol> and have been since i joined the drupal community
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<agentrickard> the proposal could get rewritten to integrate with the redesign, providing funding for some additional work, especially on documentation
<add1sun> litwol, `i don't doubt the people involved
<add1sun> but projects like this need to be sustainable by the larger community
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<add1sun> not just a few individuals
<josh_k> ++
<josh_k> to that
<ChrisCharlton> agentrickard: I have thought this type of a site would be best served as a d.o project
<litwol> add1sun: i feel that if we are officialy under d.o infra, then we will be limited by their decisions
<add1sun> litwol, rue
<agentrickard> I have the same issue with http://groups.drupal.org/node/14375
<Druplicon> http://groups.drupal.org/node/14375 => drupaleo - talent growing and hiring for drupal => 1 IRC mention
<litwol> we will needto go through too much beurocracy to get anything done
<add1sun> but you also have a community of resources
<add1sun> in infra and maintenance
<add1sun> and long term care
<gusaus> and leadership and content
<add1sun> which to me are equally important as the functionality
<litwol> however, i feel the correct workflow would be to accomplish the first and possibly 2nd phases of this project off-d.o and then merge the working product back into d.o
<ChrisCharlton> always true and always under estimates.
<josh_k> also, this would make things harder process-wise initially, but it would resolve a ton of issues around "does this go in the handbook" etc
<ChrisCharlton> *estimated
<add1sun> josh_k, yes, i feel like we should deal with the hard issues
<add1sun> with funding, the time to "do it right" makes more sense
<josh_k> I agree
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<agentrickard> the advantage of funding is that it lets people dedicate time to -- among other things -- handling the process
<gusaus> and doing right would be to open up the process to mentors and apprentices and create learning materials from the experience
<josh_k> I think it's actually not hard because of some techincal challenge, it's just that there are many more stakeholders for somethign on *.d.o, and the decisionmaking process is slower
<litwol> add1sun: do you have a comment on the abov proposed workflow ?
<litwol> first build it off d.o and then merge working product into d.o
<litwol> build it with idea in mind to merge to d.o after it's done
<add1sun> so really i feel like the proposal needs to incorproate into d.o OR have a *really* solid plan for how it will be useful long-term without d.o
<add1sun> litwol, well i would like that fleshed out some
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<add1sun> what exactly id the process to get it merged into d.o at a later poiunt?
* josh_k imagines much like g.d.o, it would run its own stack, etc
<add1sun> what are the challenges in that vs. the challenges in starting in d.o
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<litwol> add1sun: i lack technical details of d.o to imagine the proper workflow of that
<add1sun> i think comparing this would be useful for everyone
<litwol> i believe we can tackle it once we get there
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<litwol> oh sure
<agentrickard> I'm going to call time on this debate
<agentrickard> anyone else want to highlight their proposal?
<agentrickard> add1sun: ?
<gusaus> good idea
<add1sun> agentrickard, i do not have time - i have to go to the airport
<agentrickard> ok
<add1sun> but i am answering questions on the proposal as they come up
<add1sun> so all can feel fgree to post there
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<agentrickard> ok
<agentrickard> I can hang out a little to answer questions
<agentrickard> anyone else have a proposal?>
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<reinier> i am thinking of submitting revenue sharing with openx
<reinier> that, in itself, is not very journalistic
<reinier> but here, in africa, it might really encourage people to contribute
<josh_k> agentrickard: when will the next review discussion be?
<reinier> (ah, openx is an add-server)
<agentrickard> josh_k: should be first Thursday, so Oct. 2
<josh_k> thanks
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<agentrickard> reinier: you should watch the DrupalCON video
<agentrickard> it isn;t about journalism
<agentrickard> its about community building
<agentrickard> (which Knight believes is aided by journalism and freedom of speech)
<reinier> video is not really an option on a shared 64kbs link
<josh_k> my colleagues and I are working over some ideas, so may have a proposal by then, and I'd also like to help out a but more generally if I can
<josh_k> anyway, thanks for all yr tireless cat-herding :)
<shady|> ditto, thanks agentrickard
<litwol> add1sun: i've added "todo" items to answer your questions. i'll keep you posted
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<gusaus> agentrickard: general funding question - I have 3 proposals/projects in which 'might' be something that KDI approves... but instead of waiting around, we're going to try to solicit enough funds ( thru sponsorships and donations) to at least start up the projects - so I guess the question is 1) what do you think about that approach; 2) is it ok to ask for partial funding?
<j_matthew_s_> thanks everybody!
<agentrickard> gusaus: its fine
<gusaus> ok
<agentrickard> when you apply, Kinght will ask you how much you are asking for, and how much the total cost is
<agentrickard> you would have to reveal your other funcding sources, I believe
<gusaus> agentrickard: ok
<agentrickard> btw anyone can be a cat herder
<litwol> agentrickard: can you suggest on the next step i should take with our proposal (other than answering immediate questions posed by the curious)
<agentrickard> we hade to postpone this meeting because I was one a plane last week -- that shouldn;t happen.
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<agentrickard> litwol: it sounds like you need a firm rationale for why the site should be separate from the d.o infrastructure and redesign process
<agentrickard> reinier: see http://groups.drupal.org/node/10459
<Druplicon> http://groups.drupal.org/node/10459 => Goals of the Knight Drupal Initiative => 1 IRC mention
<gusaus> agentrickard: we're having our LADrupalCamp this weekend - one of the things we want to do is attract more people on the local level to KDI and Drupal in general - any suggestions?
<agentrickard> reinier: emphasis on 'supporting the free exchange of information and ideas.' instead of "Journalism"
<agentrickard> http://groups.drupal.org/node/11159
<Druplicon> http://groups.drupal.org/node/11159 => KDI: Spread the word => 4 IRC mentions
<agentrickard> print the flyer and hand it out
<litwol> agentrickard: yes. i am more than willing to work in parralel towards similar goal, but i am highly against doing the initial work UNDER d.o
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<agentrickard> there's precedent for that
<agentrickard> dww and I are talking about sandboxing the "new" Project* install
<gusaus> litwol: i've got many ideas and issues - but we should have a conversation offline ;)
<agentrickard> in that case, you have to detail the integration plan
<katin> offline... or maybe a convo on another channel? I also have ideas and issues, and I'm looking for more background on the perceived failings of Dojo.
<gusaus> agentrickard: are there any KDI folks in Los Angeles (that you know of)
<litwol> agentrickard: sounds reasonable. at this time i am unaware of the technical complexities regarding the new project* install. i believe this is a solid call to get involved if i hope to work in parralel towards later integraton
<agentrickard> is anyone here who can post the transcript of the chat, funnymonkey usually does it
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<agentrickard> gusaus: I don't think so
<agentrickard> gusaus: but Cary Gordon was at DrupalCON
<litwol> agentrickard: do you want a plain copy/paste of the convo ?
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<agentrickard> sure
<agentrickard> that's what we normally do
<litwol> pm me your email please
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<agentrickard> just post it in the group
<agentrickard> see http://groups.drupal.org/node/13810
<Druplicon> http://groups.drupal.org/node/13810 => Chat transcript, IRC Meeting, August 7, 2008 => 1 IRC mention
<litwol> okey
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<josh_k> litwol: also, on the DLRC
<agentrickard> thx
<gusaus> agentrickard: I'm surprised by that - I think there could be more people involved with KDI and even help with proposals - we just have to find them
<josh_k> I would love to add momentum any way I can
<josh_k> am planning on starting to do video doc/lessons again regardless
<josh_k> my heart isn't in it to build a site for it though
<agentrickard> we just need some more promotion, I think
<josh_k> personally I found the whole drupaldojo.com to be a big distraction
<gusaus> josh_k: haven't we heard all this before :P
<litwol> josh_k: bingo. i was planning the same in the NYC group. but dmitrig01 has aa more brilliant idea
<litwol> :)
<agentrickard> I have my hands full already but ericg at DevSeed had some good ideas
<josh_k> gusaus: clearly, but there's always hope :)
<gusaus> agentrickard: one of my missions is to identify and recruit more people on the local level
<josh_k> litwol: I would try soliciting feedback from infrastructure people on the potential for building outside and merging later
<nickvidal> i think today's meeting was very different from the last one. There were so many more proposals. Slowly KDI is growing.
<agentrickard> well, if nothing else we could use more reviewers
<litwol> josh_k: that is the idea.
<agentrickard> and some martketing volunteers
<josh_k> e.g. if you can get dww or the like to give a good review of that plan, it's much more likely to pass muster
<litwol> josh_k: i will need to provide integration plan
<agentrickard> this one was exponentially larger than the last one
<josh_k> yeah
<agentrickard> Szeged helped
<nickvidal> indeed
<josh_k> litwol: the other thing would be to keep the concept as simple as possible
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<litwol> agentrickard: i will wait until the chat officialy ends
<litwol> agentrickard: to post the log
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<josh_k> minimal toolset, design targeted for the end-user, etc
<litwol> josh_k: to continue DRLC disucssion join #drupal-groups
<josh_k> mkay
<gusaus> agentrickard: does KDI fund the marketing of KDI?
<gusaus> err... or sponsor programs that might help them?
<agentrickard> lol
<agentrickard> not yet
<agentrickard> though Knight dropped 15K on DrupalCON Boston
<agentrickard> they did not sponsor in Szeged
<nickvidal> IMHO, Drupal proposals should spend Knight's money wisely. Just because they are giving it, doesn't mean we should waste it.
<gusaus> agentrickard: ok - so that might not be too far fetched - we're actually planning several events that may help get the word out about KDI as well as attract new people
<litwol> agentrickard: thank you for your time. :)
<agentrickard> sure
<gusaus> nickvidal: agreed - that's one of the reasons i gave litwol's proposal 1 star ;)
<agentrickard> I';m just trying to help